Reflections on NZgirl's 'Breast Intentions'

5/12/2010

It’s been a fascinating few days since I was alerted to the breasts marketing campaign and wrote my original blog post. This was picked up by the media and I appeared on current affairs show Close Up on Friday evening, debating NZgirl’s founder Jenene Freer.

As my first TV experience, I would say it was definitely trial by fire! It was certainly set up as a heated debate, rather than an ‘interview’ per se, and the fact that it was live to air made it a pretty intense experience. People have vehemently criticised both of us for interrupting each other, but I feel the producers had intended it to be this way so have stuck up for Jenene here. Jenene and I shook hands afterwards and she was very gracious. She said to me afterwards that on many things we were probably on the same page. I agreed with her, and certainly regarding breast cancer, we both would love for no woman to suffer this dreadful disease. What we disagree on is the level of harm caused that is an acceptable level in order to raise ‘awareness’ or money.

Who has this campaign harmed?

•    The women and their families who uploaded naked breast photos that now feature on countless explicit porn sites. These women have no control over this image, or what has happened to it.

•    The many women and girls for whom a happy, healthy body image and strong self esteem is a challenge. The site clearly shows whose breasts are the most popular, and these are the breasts that conform to that narrow version of beauty pedalled by the media.

•    The many breast cancer survivors for whom “a lovely pair” campaign is just a blatant reminder of what they have not got. I have been overwhelmed by the poignant messages from many of these women. Kate has written a very touching post on this.

I know that many people support NZgirl's campaign, and I know that many women have felt empowered and positive about it. That is good for them and I am not speaking for those women. I am speaking out for the many people who have been humiliated, exploited, degraded and offended by this campaign.

Jenene Freer is a smart woman, she has achieved huge things in the business world and I really respect her for what she has achieved. Among other things, she is a director of an internet advertising company – she knows how to get websites making money. And no one can deny this marketing campaign has been a resounding success. Freer will be well aware of the HUGE impact this will have had on her advertising revenue – it will more than cover their maximum $5000 donation. And going forward, she can use these viewing stats to further convince advertisers to join them. Freer yesterday stated that "And just in case anyone wonders, and to clear up the "marketing ploy", I will never enter this into any marketing awards." So, companies only run marketing campaigns to win awards? Funny that, I understood that marketing campaigns were about increasing revenue.

NZgirl are making way too much money out of this campaign, I can see that it would be financial madness for them to take it down. So I am not holding out hope for that. But I am relieved that they have responded to some of the criticisms and added a lot more information to their site with regards to breast cancer awareness, moderating images and about the implications of sharing information on the internet. It’s still too little, too late.

It’s been quite a journey over the past few days and tomorrow morning I need to get back focussed on my work projects and my family. For those of you that sent abusive whacko messages, you have provided great entertainment. For those of you that have argued fairly against me, I respect you for making a stand for what you believe in. And for all you wonderful fantabulous people from all round the world who sent me countless messages of support and encouragement, you rock my world. The passion and outrage has been so powerful and I am proud to have been a part of the voice. Onwards and upwards!

** 8 Dec Update: NZGirl have been forced to clarify one of the un-truths stated in the Close Up interview. They put this on their Facebook wall yesterday:
"The New Zealand Breast Cancer Foundation have requested we clarify any reader confusion and state that the ‘lovely pair’ campaign is in no way supported or endorsed by The New Zealand Breast Cancer Foundation."
Close Up followed up with this article.
Freer has continued to deny it, as evidenced in her comment below. I provided the exact transcript and find it sad that she wants to continue the lie.

23 Comments

Vicki

5/12/2010 15:08:31

Lovely post Rachel, I am so grateful for people like you who have been so fantastic at communicating exactly how I too have felt about this whole affair. I hope Janene reads this. For all of her swagger and posturing I do believe she knows we have her number on this one.

NIki Gunning link

5/12/2010 21:25:22

Hi there Rachel

Good on your for standing up what you believe in. It certainly was a baptism of fire and you held up well alongside someone who is very media savvy.
You keep doing your wonderful work Rachel.

Jenene link

5/12/2010 23:12:15

It was nice to meet you Rachel and I continue to state that I respect your opinion and your strength to stand up for what you believe in. Thank you for your nice comments above.

I would like to clarify the comment you've made on "NZgirl are making way too much money out of this campaign, I can see that it would be financial madness for them to take it down"

You are CATEGORICALLY INCORRECT.

We set our ads in lump sums in advance. So any advertising running on the site (which were not on ANY of the breast promo pages) would not receive any more money for receiving more traffic. In fact, the opposite. It has cost a fortune to keep the servers going and we pay for traffic volume.

As for making money out of the traffic after - also incorrect. We will be taking the images down (as I've said all along) and redirecting all the traffic to the Breast Health page. On this page we will only show charity ads.

As for whether we get any additional brand benefit from this....well let me say this. So are you. This has been an incredible platform for you to raise awareness for your projects as well. And I imagine both your supporters, and our supporters, have been able to learn more about what we are about. I don't feel the need to apologise for that.

Here's to a new week. Hope it's a good one and the sun shines.

Jenene

Genevieve link

5/12/2010 23:49:59

Awesome summary Rachel and I also respect you for stay strong in what you believe. It's been inspirational. I also know that campaign won't be taken down and I agree that if the women who have entered are feeling good and empowered that's fine. However it's still not for me. I'm raising a four year old daughter in a world that is already so sexualised and as it is I'm often scared that I won't be able to teach her to respect herself and her body when she is surrounded by images that "say" that to be sexy and beautiful she should dress in very little and be overtly sexual. I feel like this campaign really added to that.

I really wish that it had been thought out more with regards to how to keep the women entering safe, there is software to make copying photos harder, there should have been a strict R18 condition.

Apparently there is a similar campaign run in America each year and while still not my thing it has been so much better thought out with regards to safety, information and raising awareness for breast cancer including promoting breast cancer in men.

I dread the idea of it but should Jenene ever run this again (and to be honest it wouldn't surprise me at all) I would ask that the very least she could do is consider these things.

Genevieve
:o)

Jenene link

6/12/2010 00:06:49

For those concerned - we have been vigilant about age. The site is aimed at women in their mid 20's. We have policies in place around teens coming to the site. However, we decided that we felt it best to go with 20 for this.

I was thinking this morning about the 'money making' aspect (I wish someone would tell me how we can make money out of this - seriously). The ironic part is that TVNZ are the winners in this. The reason they didn't want an interview (I'm with you on that Rachel, they were setting it up to be a fight - that's what makes great telly as far as they're concerned) - is that the more people who watch it....they more money they make. The only people who've profited from this so far are the periphery media who have jumped on this. The only reason why they've jumped on it is because of the controversy (we never promoted this outside of our community).

Anyhow, onwards and upwards - hope that the people who have sent nasty emails to you haven't got you down. It's made for an interesting week on seeing how people react to things, that's for sure! Like you, I've just shrugged off the nasty and reminded myself of my convictions.

Amie

6/12/2010 04:43:50

I generally manage to avoid the media because my life is filled with other things, so I've only just noticed the fracas that's broken out over the posting of breast pics online and have just viewed the Close Up 'interview'.

Did anyone else notice Mark Sainsbury's slip at the end when referred to NZGirl's initiative as a competition? Was that because of the hotly contested debate between Rachel and Jenene, or because the breasts are competing against each other for ranking? The fact that one of our premiere journalists made such a faux pas is a pretty good indicator of the declining standards of journalism in this country.

In general I find the commmonplace objectification and sexualisation of both women and men in our society pretty disheartening so I'm never going to be in favour of a campaign that promotes this, no matter what the cause. Many women and men I know view this differently, see such openess as a marker of a healthy society and freedom of choice. Perhaps they are more extroverted than I am, or maybe more realist!

What I notice, what cuts through, is that images are becoming more and more provocative, riske and sexualised. Models are younger and increasingly more sexual in their poses. Now let's face it, we are biologically wired to sit up and notice. Our biological and social evolution drives us to notice sex and sexual images. Advertisers, marketers and media utilitse this more and more in an increasingly competitive market place.

I believe that our society has the choice to decide where the lines are, and what values and actions we wish to encourage or discourage. From what I can tell, NZGirl chooses to encourage women to upload images of their breasts, share their stories and buy stuff. Rachel chooses to educate and help young people to make good choices for themselves.

I'd prefer to live in a society that was less obsessed with how we looked (with or without our clothes) and more interested in the mental, physical and emotional wellbeing of its participants. One that really encouraged people to develop their minds and their talents rather than chase the ever-elusive dollar. I'd prefer to live in a society where young people were treasured for their curiosity, creativity and energy and one that didn't encourage nubile sexuality.

So I say big ups to Rachel for her work.

To Jenene at NZ Girl - you are in such a fantastic position to really make a positive difference in many young girls' lives. Perhaps you could consider some other issues to champion in future that are potentially more in line with the particular challenges that face your demographics such as contraceptive use, teen pregnancy, developing self-esteem (without surgical enhancement), attitudes towards alcohol and drugs, dealing with anxiety and developing confidence within and outside of relationships. I understand that breast cancer can strike at any age but it's a higher risk for older women and more likely to affect your audience vicariously via their mums. Perhaps, in addition to the money you've raised towards breast cancer through your campaign, and off the promotion this controversy has generated for your site, there could be a really golden opportunity here for NZ Girl to lead the pack in its celebration of New Zealand women?

Good luck to both of you!

Jenene link

6/12/2010 05:49:26

Aime, why don't you jump onto nzgirl and go into the forums and ask the members about the impact nzgirl has had on their lives? Perhaps that might give you a more balanced view. There's no point me defending your comments - I'll let our nearly 100,000 membership base speak for themselves.

Thanks for your feedback.

Justine

6/12/2010 06:37:26

In response to Aime's post above, you challenge Jenene to take this "golden opportunity to lead the pack in celebration of New Zealand women", yet this is what Jenenes been doing for years through NZgirl!

Have you actually been to the site? Have you taken the time to communicate with any of the users, or is this "perfect pair" campaign the only reason you've bothered to take a look?

Ive been an avid user of the site for 6 years now, and know members who have been involved for many more years than that! I can personally say, I wouldn't be the confident, beautiful, vivacious girl I am today without it. Through NZgirl I have learnt that if all us NZgirls knew how afraid we all were, we'd be alot less scared.

Through NZgirl, girls who are too shy to use their voices have a place where they can ask questions, where they can take experiences from girls whove been in their position before. Through NZgirl, girls are able to express their worries, fears, desires, dreams and aspirations in a setting where others wont challenge, but commend and push them to strive harder or push them to change the negativity surrounding them.

There are many stories of teen pregnancy, unplanned pregnancy tragic stories of depression, anxiety, rape, abuse, death.. and there are stories of success- first home buying, new jobs.
If the society you want is where young people are treasured for their curiosity, creativity and energy then NZgirls the place you will find it.

mark link

6/12/2010 07:45:38

Jenene love your work.

Amber

6/12/2010 07:49:38

A wonderful post that has stimulated great dialogue (that I've really enjoyed reading), and for me a more in-depth grasp on this topic - thanks everyone for your thoughts.

Erin

6/12/2010 08:05:53

I'm with Justine - take this 'lovely pair' campaign out of the picture for a second, and take some time to have a look around the website. You'll find it already is that place you're talking about. I've been using it for about as long as Justine has (posted above), and it's played a huge role in my growing up - from a slightly naive, young teenager to the brave, bold, confident young woman I am now.

The site is full of stories exactly like the ones you're wanting, Amie - and it has been since it started. In amongst the fashion and the more trivial things are countless stories about huge, life-changing events... there's relationships, pregnancy, abuse, depression, mental health, sexual health, nutrition, health advice, travel, marriage, divorce, new homes, starting families... you name it, it's on there.

The community on the forums is one of the most supportive and valuable I've ever seen - people may not agree on everything but every person has so much to contribute and to add. The discussions are thoughtful, intelligent, and genuine. So many people pop up just to ask a question they may not be able to ask in real life of their friends or families - with dilemmas, predictaments, needing advice, or just to share some fabulous news. And there's a whole community of sassy, vibrant, intelligent young women who've been there or who've got something to add to support them and to share stories. Many of us who've been using the site for years have been through a lot, as everybody does in life, and there's always been that girly support through the good times and the bad.

Honestly, NZGirl is one of the most helpful websites as far as being a young woman in today's world goes. There is so much support on there and so many life-affirming stories, it's hard not to come away stronger and confident and a balanced young woman.

There's no judgement, there's no 'this is right and this is wrong', there's no overt sexualisation of women or undoing the hard work feminism did for our rights - only highlighting options, putting forward real stories from real women who've been in those situations, and the overwhelming idea that above all, be strong in your convictions, be true to yourself, love yourself, and do what you feel is right.

And really, what more could you ask for?

Just take some time to have a look around the site. Set aside your feelings on the breast campaign - because really, nobody is ever going to agree, and that's fine - and have a look at what's there. You'll probably be surprised. :-)

Rachel Hansen link

6/12/2010 08:49:08

I was determined to stop writing on this topic, but Erin your comment was so heart-felt that I had to reply :)

I am certainly not rubbishing the whole nzgirl site - far from it. I completely understand that many women get support and valuable information from it.

I am criticising the breasts campaign: the harm it has caused is not worth any benefit it may have had.

I do my best to live a life aligned to my values, so I (try to) avoid companies that conflict with these. As do many other people. If nzgirl has been as helpful as you said (and I have no reason to doubt this), then I think it must be disappointing for the members to realise that this marketing campaign will stop other women from joining it.

Having said that, they are a business, and the bottom line in any business is revenue. And that is what their #1 priority is, not a goal to help women (although this certainly may be one of their goals, or a nice side-effect). So, as with any business that relies on advertising for revenue, the readers do need to be aware of the content being loaded towards advertisers. (Not neccesarily a bad thing, but I know that many girls are unaware of this, or perhaps just hadn't considered it when reading mags, websites etc).

Thanks for all the comments guys.

Erin

6/12/2010 09:11:53

It is... and I'm not totally disagreeing with your points - I can see where you're coming from, and I totally agree that younger girls need to have it drilled into them that putting sexualised images of themselves online is not a good idea, that there is no perfect body, and that being overly sexualised isn't the only way. Self-respect is such a huge thing that seems to missing in so many ways these days, it's terrifying and it's incredibly sad. Couldn't agree with you more. I just think you've got to balance it in thise case with the fact that it is a bunch of adult women who've been posting, well-aware of the consequences [most are headless, so even if they were scraped and put on porn sites at least it could theoretically be anybody - not exactly ideal but better than being identifiable], and that kids these days are growing up a lot more savvy and worldly-wise than even my generation [I'm 23]. Which scares the crap out of me, quite frankly, but I guess we've got to move forward with them and support them as best we can in this brave new world.

I really think that, taking all the boob stuff aside, we're all wanting the same thing anyway - our girls to grow up healthy and well-adjusted and happy and smart and everything else. And I applaud anybody trying to do that and trying to help them in that way.

I've worked for a magazine for years who run on advertising, so I do know how it all works... a bit of a pain, but if it's keeping things running then that's just the price you've gotta pay sometimes. For any free magazine there's going to be that compromise somewhere; it's just a case of how far it goes and where you draw lines. Perhaps I am more aware of that than others, given my work history, but I think they make it pretty obvious. NZGirl are pretty transparent about what's sponsored and what's advertorial and what's not (big 'sponsored links' signs on everything), so they do a better job than many at being open about what is and isn't earning them money. At the end of they day they're a business... we've all gotta make a living somehow.

I think Jenene's comment about it draining them with all the traffic over the weekend is probably true though - purely because increased traffic = increased server space, and it's been nigh-on impossible to get onto the site over the past few days, it's sooooo slow!!

Anyway, keep doing what you're doing - even if we don't see eye to eye on this one, I think you're doing a really good thing. :-)

Rachel Hansen link

6/12/2010 09:21:15

Erin, you're awesome.
I certainly think we see eye-to-eye on many things! Thanks for the feedback and for taking the time to provide this thoughtful and balanced assessment of the topic, really appreciated :)

Salt

7/12/2010 05:22:52

Hi Rachel

New to your work and I like what I've read so far. And I like many of the links I've followed from it.

At the risk of hijacking this topic...I'm curious about what you think some of the implications (of the representation of women/girls in media) are for boys...? Writing as you do about these issues, as the mother of a young boy, you might have reflected on it a bit and I'd love to hear some of those thoughts.

Truly, am inspired by your work. Thank you for that.

Rachel Hansen link

8/12/2010 02:14:33

@salt - thanks for the feedback, great question and definitely an important issue. I will follow up on this question in a blog post soon : )

Rachel Hansen link

8/12/2010 02:19:48

During the Close Up interview, Jenene Freer said a number of misleading things. One of these was that NZGirl had the support of the breast Cancer Foundation. This is absolutely untrue, and NZ Girl has just put this statement on their Facebook page:

"The New Zealand Breast Cancer Foundation have requested we clarify any reader confusion and state that the ‘lovely pair’ campaign is in no way supported or endorsed by The New Zealand Breast Cancer Foundation."

This was also on Close Up last night - http://tvnz.co.nz/close-up/breast-cancer-foundation-responds-3952180

Jenene link

8/12/2010 03:32:23

Hi Rachel

As said to you and shown to Mark on the evening, the support we received was from the Breast health Foundation

Thanks
Jenene

Rachel Hansen link

8/12/2010 04:02:18

Jenene please don't defend an outright lie, this is the transcript:

"Rachel: The Breast Cancer Foundation is not in support of this.
Jenene: Actually that is not true either, they said to us, and we had an email to this effect to say that anything that helps awareness of breast health and women checking..."

Nothing about the Breast Health Foundation was said to me, or mentioned on TV. Hence the Breast Cancer Foundation's request for you to clarify this to viewers. That the main breast cancer association in NZ do not want to be associated with this campaign is very telling.

Jenene link

8/12/2010 04:19:39

I am not defending an outright lie Rachel - we received support from the Breast Health Foundation and this is what I was referring to. I showed this support to Mark before we went on air.

Jenene link

8/12/2010 04:21:09

Further to that, I stand by the conversation that I had with Suzanne from BRCF earlier in the week that they didn't support or endorse the campaign, but they did support any opportunity for women to have greater appreciation of Breast Health - and this is what they tweeted (and we re-tweeted).

Jenene link

8/12/2010 04:23:50

Final point, because I'm keen to move on....

It has taken an enormous amount of self control to not take you to task for the comment around child pornography. The defamation side of that is pretty signficant (and trust me when I say that we've had people approach us on whether we'd like to take this up legally - it offended a lot of people).

It was an incredibly fast paced and heated debate. Which I'm sure you didn't mean to have come out the way it did.

Rachel Hansen link

8/12/2010 05:37:34

Here is the transcript of my statement regarding child pornography:
"In the Terms and Conditions it states that you should/must be over the age of 18 to post an image unless you ask the permisison of your parents. Well I'm sorry regardless of parental consent, underage child pornography is actually illegal to host."

There is nothing incorrect in this statement. Child pornography (sexual images of under 18s) is illegal to host. I don't have a legal team to advise me, but there is nothing defaming about pointing out that if nzgirl followed their T&Cs, they could be hosting what would legally be considered child pornography.

It's really good that as the campaign evolved more warnings and information was put on the website to prevent this happening, and I am sure the nzgirl team were made acutely aware of this when vetting images.

Something I have been wondering and lots of people have asked me - what process have you used to ensure there are no under 18s? (Given that there are 7,500 pre-teens and teenagers who visit the site every month of which 2,500 are below the age of 16.) And how have you verified that the breasts sent to you, are the breasts of the person sending it?

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Reflections on NZgirl's 'Breast Intentions'

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